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RE: Affects of the balkanization of mail blacklisting

  • From: Vivien M.
  • Date: Tue Aug 14 02:05:11 2001

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]On Behalf Of
> Mitch Halmu
> Sent: August 14, 2001 1:24 AM
> To: Vivien M.
> Cc: [email protected]
> Subject: RE: Affects of the balkanization of mail blacklisting
> On Tue, 14 Aug 2001, Vivien M. wrote:
> > The INNOCENTS caught in MAPS were usually affiliated with
> someone guilty in
> > some way in another; eg would Mitch's customers be considered innocent
> > victims of MAPS, even though their victimness is directly due to their
> > decision to do business with someone who is guilty?
> Guilty of what, Vivien? You are accusing me of being a spammer? NetSide's
> customers were fully informed of our stance published on a web site
> dedicated to the problem, most agreed, and those that chose to stay and
> endure the year-long MAPS blockade obviously like their communications
> uncensored, and truly appreciate being able to transparently use their
> accounts from elsewhere (i.e., from the office).

MAPS accused you of operating an open relay.

You posted to NANOG saying you proudly operate an open relay.

That, ladies and gentlemen, is pretty much the textbook definition of an
open and shut case.  (In my book, that makes you guilty of operating an open

Tell me, if you hate MAPS so much, why haven't you sued them for
slander/libel? Is it perhaps because your lawyers told you that MAPS'
accusations are TRUE and you'd get yourself laughed out of court?

> > Funny, I could say the same about you:
> > "You never gave a s**t about facts, you cared only about your agenda -
> > no matter who got spammed in the way".
> The "collateral damage" they inflicted is simply unacceptable. The MAPS

They inflicted no damage.

Example: your local $ILEC has some Yellow Pages, where you are listed as an
ISP. Some bad thiefs want to steal a T1 router or a Sparc 5, and figure an
ISP would be a good place to get this equipment. They see your listing,
break into your facility, and steal your hardware.

Do you sue $ILEC for having set you up for being robbed?

Now, MAPS publishes a listing of people who operate an open relay. You admit
running an open relay. Someone else uses that listing to refuse mail from

Why is MAPS in that second example more evil than $ILEC in the first one?

Both provided a listing. You suffered damage in both cases because a THIRD
PARTY used this listing to cause damage to you. How is the provider of the
second listing more to blame?

> "agenda" came fully into the limelight with the fees they now ask for
> the "service". I dare to be as bold as to imply that their agenda is akin

I don't blame them for charging; being in the business of operating a
mostly-free service, I have found that people are very hesitant to open
their wallet unless they're forced to... when, quite often, a decent amount
of wallets are likely to snap open, while the others of the remaining
wallets scream "bait and switch". Coincidence? Perhaps it's human nature.
(Note: before I get flamed, we haven't pulled that kind of thing on our
users - we're too much a bunch of nice naive guys)

> > Vixie's done a lot of things other than MAPS that have done a
> lot of good;
> > BIND, anyone? I'm sure there are a bunch of others but exposure to such
> > stupidity as your post has caused my mind to go blank.
> So Der Fuehrer constructed the German autobahn, Il Duce made the Italian
> trains roll on time, etc. Are they good people? While I don't

I'll leave that to the historians to judge. Last time I checked, this wasn't
NAHRG - North American History Research Group.

> even question
> Vixie's great contributions such as BIND, I am fighting his little MAPS
> charity based strictly on the belief that no private party has the right
> to appoint themselves as communications censors. That role, if it ever
> comes to it, can only be filled by laws and a government mandate.


How has MAPS interfered in ANY way with your mail? Let's say I use MAPS (I
don't, FYI... we don't have a need for it). You send mail to me. Based on MY
decision to have my server trust MAPS' judgment, my server tells your mail
to go screw itself. What did MAPS do other than ADVISE me to reject your
mail? If I didn't TRUST MAPS' judgment, then I wouldn't use it.

That, my friend, is the difference between MAPS and your government censors
you seem to WANT. If you have government censors saying "Good ol' Mitch is
bad", then it will be the LAW forcing everybody to block you, and you are
totally gone. If you have MAPS blacklisting you, then it is ONLY the people
who have chosen to TRUST (and pay, nowadays) MAPS that are rejecting your
mail. If I were you, I'd prefer the second alternative... at least for your
customers' sake.

Vivien M.
[email protected]
Assistant System Administrator
Dynamic DNS Network Services