North American Network Operators Group

Date Prev | Date Next | Date Index | Thread Index | Author Index | Historical

2006.06.07 NANOG-NOTES Smart Network Data Services

  • From: Matthew Petach
  • Date: Fri Jun 09 07:23:48 2006
  • Domainkey-signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta;; h=received:message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:x-google-sender-auth; b=oJf2JMt+S7gunQCUZIsRKXS//hPK3M8ARldrKrvvolgvl79KSSqGAH/nEmlb7V1H0g+I9n6VP+pHzOazprnbH7SVKVTaI3GeHdzT8VMW0x+uTdUk6TF84LoYvwtR66OyX+reteeNnPDHKB20CwdiHEU+4dTVpf7W1H9C1QWeT9U=

(I'm starting to guess I'd finish sending these out faster if
I stopped falling asleep on my keyboard so often... --Matt)

2006.06.07 Welcome to Wednesday morning
click on Evaluation Form
Let us know how the M-W vs S-Tu
format; next time will be S-Tu due to ARIN
joint meeting, but need more feedback!

Bill Woodcock, been on program committee

And lightning talk people need to send their
slides to Steve Feldman!!

Elliot Gilliam,
ISP community, notifications to
Smart Network Data Services
[slides are at

postmaster services

Postmaster--starting point for any issues you have
sending mail into Hotmail/MSN Live.
It's like AOL skunkfeed, you can do junk mail
Lets you see what bad stuff is coming from your

Site is at:

bad stuff on the internet (spam, phishing, zombies,
ID theft, DDoS)
makes customers unhappy.
Solution #1 -- try to stop it before it hits customers
doesn't really *solve* the problem
Solution #2 -- take what we learn, apply it upstream,
get more bang for buck
#2: #1 is too low

ISP-centric efficiency
solution #1, n ISPs have n-1 problems, total is O(n^2)
n ISPs have 1 problem (themselves), total is O(n)

reduces work of the overall system.

today people and ISPs are measured by how much BAD stuff
 they *receive*
Not judged by what they send out.
similar to healthcare industry
 no tight feedback loop to ISP behaviour
nice quotes on slides

7 step program (like 12 step, but shorter)
1: recognize the problem:               SNDS
2: believe that someone can help you :  Me
3: Decide to do something :             You
8: Make an inventory of those harmed :  SNDS
9: Make amends to them :                Tools
10: Continue to inventory :             SNDS
12: Tell others about the program  :    You

What is SNDS
Website that offers free, instant access to MSN
data on activity coming from your IP space
 data that correlates with "internet evils"
 informs ISP to enable local policy decisions
Automated authorization mechanism
uses WHOIS and rDNS
users are people not companies
A force multiplier attempt.

You can do it on your own, no need to sign up
your company officially as long as you're an
rWHOIS/WHOIS contact.

SNDS goal:
provide info which allows ISPs to detect and fix any
undesired activity.
qualitative and quantitative data
"No ISP left behind"
stop problems upstream of the destination
Bring total cost of remediation to absolute minimum
keep service free
Make internet a better place.

We have data!
Windows Live Mail/MSN Hotmail is a spam and spoofing
4 billion inbound mails/day
 90/10 spam/ham by filtering technologies
User reports on spam, fraud, etc.

Inbound mail system slide--ugly to read, too dark.

SNDS website slide shown.
You can see daily aggregated traffic from your network;
activity periods, IPs, commands and messages seen on
port 25, samples of exchanges.
Filter results on your mail
rate at which users press "this is junk" on your mail.
Trap counts for when IPs hit their junk filters.
comments column is catch-all for anything else they
might put in; like open proxies, when tested positive.
"export to CSV" button, so you can feed the data in
to your own systems if you want.

Today's Scenario
Illustrate magnitude and evidence of a problem.
additional resources
monitoring infrastructure

SNDS Stats
2500 users
mostly senders
67 million IPs
10-20% of inbound mail and complaints

Output drops by 57% on /24+ when monitored by SNDS

SNDS tomorrow
signup by ASN
better support for upstream providers
access transfer
programmatic access
virus-infected emails
sample messages
Expand the the coverage, try to hit more of the problems
on the net.
Provide sample messages, compelling evidence when facing
This hasn't shipped yet, it's what he's hoping to
have in a month or two.

Tomorrow's Scenarios
barrier to entry
recurring "cost"
ISP  types
tier 1/2 monitoring, tier 2/3
directly attack more than just spam
virus emails -> infected PCs, outbound virus filters
phishing/malware hosting -> takedowns.

Is asymmetric routing a sign of people trying to
launch hidden abuses of the net?
Looking to hit more issues, like spotting virus-laden
messages; either infected, or an open relay.
Hoping that automation speeds response.

Safety Tools
[oy, read the list from his slide, it's long.]
green items on the list are free, others are pay-for
Pay-for isn't necessarily a bad thing if you get

Safety tool breakdown from MSN on next slide.

Hypothesis: everyone benefits
infected uses get fixed
safer, cheaper, better internet experience
solution #1 isn't solving the problem
altruistic is the "new" selfish
only benefits if everyone else does

make business case why they're doing this.
They need to stop paying costs of trying to
deal with spam.
Wants to get benefit of being one of the people
seeing a cleaner internet

ISP Motivation
they're unhappy, unsafe
they like people who fix that
  be the hero
  retain customers
  win new ones
fixing has more benefits than bandaging
 [bandaging is just sticking fingers in the dike, it
 doesn't scale, eventually we run out of fingers to
 stick in the holes]
cost reductions
bandwidth--slow growth demands
support--fewer complaints to your help desk.

Motivation alternatives
Industry scorecard
public recognition
public shame
Logo ISP program--how clean are you?

Business case
Some nice quotes from different people around the
business case needed here.
appeal to cost reduction and revenue generation
this is starting to happen.

let your sales and marketing people know about
Boston university business case, students arriving
with computers presented danger/load to their
help desk.
Qwest provides windows/one software to their

usability--how easily can you work with it?
utility--what can you do?
what's missing
tools to aid customer remediation
need IPv6 support at some point
how do ISPs see cost vs benfits
costs, benefits, NANOG aggregation
how do we get critical mass?
[email protected]

How does SNDS fit into the larger ecosystem
relationship to
 adam, rick at support intelligence
 Yahoo is working on a system like this, Irene Lai is
  here to work on that, email her if you're interested.
Should/how do other ISPs provide this?
 common schema, authorization, authentication
 federation, delegation, aggregation

Mailing list: [email protected]

Try it!
tell people about it!

Q: Matt asks whether Microsoft will point their
own systems at it, since Nick Feamster's presentation
showed on slide 12 that Microsoft was #10 on the
list of spam *sources* that his honeypots saw?
A: Yes, he is connecting the systems that track
mail sending from Hotmail to this as well, so that
they can start making sure they're cleaning their
own house as well.

on to next talk.