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North American Network Operators Group Date Prev | Date Next | Date Index | Thread Index | Author Index | Historical Re: Delegating /24's from a /19
I'm afraid that above is not an accurate or workable sequence of events. Not accurate in the sense that I left out some of the queries and left it as a summary of the relevant ones, however... [...bind 9.3.1...] snip Note too that this is from a fresh (empty) cache. Some queries are not needed when the cache is populated. It is not always as bad as I am illustrating - but it's easiest to visualize from the "0" state. 1. I ask a root-server for "162.57.173.209.in-addr.arpa./PTR". The response is a referral to the servers for 209.in-addr.arpa and I am told there are 7 of them. And their host names. 2. I ask another root-server for the address of each of the 7 name servers. This means 7 new queries (14 w/AAAA's) directed to this second root server. Note that in this example, all 7 name servers are in the .net domain. Right... However, pretty quickly, your cache gets these and, unless you are patholigically stupid about restarting your nameservers often, this is almost never necessary. 3. I ask the .net name servers the same questions as in #2. From this I get some "hybrid" answers - referrals enriched with answers - for most of the 7 name servers. I call these hybrids because, if you adhere strictly to the DNS protocol specifications, referrals are what you should get. The addition of the answer records to the referrals is a crutch to help the Internet run more smoothly. (For this we should thank Verisign engineers.) Except that the additional info was done long before Verisign was in the picture. Not sure why you think Verisign should get credit. Anyway, again, this query is almost never necessary. 4. The query in step 1 is issued to one of the name servers with a hybrid answer at this point. The reply received in this "step" is a referral to the servers for 57.173.209.in-addr.arpa, served up by four machines in neustar.com. OK. 5. BIND continues seeking the glue for the name servers w/o hybrid answers in step 3. BIND does this to have these name servers available for further querying, but is not necessary for the immediate question. (This is done in parallel too - to avoid unnecessary latency.) Right, but, again, this happens once in a blue moon. 6. Armed with new name servers in step 4, a query for each's address is sent to another root server, which results in referrals to the servers for .com. Again, if you actually have to do this. 99+% of the time, you will not. 7. The .com servers also give the same hybrid answers (.com and .net are on the same machines) for the 4 name servers. And, as such, you probably already have these answers. 8. The original query is then issued to one of the servers whose address was obtained in step 7. The result of this is what we wanted all along. 9. BIND may continue seeking addresses for other servers after returning the answer, filling out its cache. Why bother to detail all this? It's important to realize that the real iteration is done only in steps 1, 4, and 8. In step 1 I am being told who to ask. In step 4 I am also being told who to ask. The rest of the time I am trying to find out "where to ask". Steps 2,3,5 get me the addresses for the question in step 4. Steps 6,7,9 get the addresses for the question in step 8. Uh, right, but, steps 2,3,5 and 6,7,9 are almost always unnecessary as they get put in the cache and pretty much left there for anything at all active pretty quickly. So - going back to the comment above:a.root-servers.net returns 16.172.in-addr.arpa. IN NS ns1.arin.net.The root-servers do not return NS records, the refer the querier to one of the /8 zones. (Note that not all root servers have the same zones, some might refer the querier to the in-addr.arpa. zone.) OK... Fine... You're right, it returns more like 172.in-addr.arpa. IN NS ns1.arin.net. But I don't see this as a significant distinction, since, ARIN will still return the next line the same. They are, btw, NS records... dig @a.root-servers.net 162.57.173.209.in-addr.arpa. PTR ; <<>> DiG 9.2.3 <<>> @a.root-servers.net 162.57.173.209.in-addr.arpa. PTR ;; global options: printcmd ;; Got answer: ;; ->>HEADER<<- opcode: QUERY, status: NOERROR, id: 24751 ;; flags: qr rd; QUERY: 1, ANSWER: 0, AUTHORITY: 7, ADDITIONAL: 0 ;; QUESTION SECTION: ;162.57.173.209.in-addr.arpa. IN PTR ;; AUTHORITY SECTION: 209.in-addr.arpa. 86400 IN NS chia.ARIN.NET. 209.in-addr.arpa. 86400 IN NS dill.ARIN.NET. 209.in-addr.arpa. 86400 IN NS BASIL.ARIN.NET. 209.in-addr.arpa. 86400 IN NS henna.ARIN.NET. 209.in-addr.arpa. 86400 IN NS indigo.ARIN.NET. 209.in-addr.arpa. 86400 IN NS epazote.ARIN.NET. 209.in-addr.arpa. 86400 IN NS figwort.ARIN.NET. ;; Query time: 102 msec ;; SERVER: 198.41.0.4#53(a.root-servers.net) ;; WHEN: Wed Mar 16 23:37:33 2005 ;; MSG SIZE rcvd: 196 If that were true, then, there would be no such thing as recursive resolversns1.arin.net returns 124.16.172.in-addr.apra. IN NS ns1.foobar.com. ns1.foobar.com. returns 124.16.172.in-addr.arpa. IN NS ns1.subsidiary.com.If the above two "situations" happened, then there's a violation of the database coherency principle that DNS tries hard (split-brain aside) to uphold. In the global DNS, no matter where you ask question, you should get the same answer. and all clients would have to have recursive libraries. If I ask a recursive resolver for a foreign A record, I usually get an A record in response. If I ask a non-recursive server, I usually get NS records in response. This is no less consistent than that scenario. I.e., dig @ns1.arin.net 124.16.172.in-addr.arpa. IN NS and dig @ns1.foobar.com 124.16.172.in-addr.apra. IN NS had better return the same NS RRSet. In an ideal world, that's preferable, but, in this scenario, I have yet to see anything break when they don't, so long as ns1.foobar.com is within the RR Set returned by ns1.arin.net. So, I don't think the above is workable or even realistic. It may not be RFC-Pretty, but, I can guarantee you it does work in the real world (RFC 2317 subdelegations downstream notwithstanding, I need to look into that a bit more). Delegation is the DNS is strictly hierachical.I don't see where the above breaks this.It's the incoherency in your example that is the breakage. Perhaps, but, as long as the referrals consistently point to an end and not a loop, in general, it seems to work. 1) Send a reassign-detailed or reallocate template (in ARIN lingo) for the space to the RIR. Then the next set of DNS zone files generated will delegate to the customer's name servers. Obviously, in most circumstances, I'd agree that this is preferred. 2) Use DNAME, RFC 2672. Good luck. (http://www.isc.org/index.pl?/pubs/tn/index.pl?tn=isc-tn-2002-1.html) Right. 3) Use RFC 2317. "I encourage my competitors to operate this way." Very much not pretty with /24 and shorter prefixes. 'Course, the ISP is free to have the customer just update the ISP's name servers, whether by dynamic update or be zone transfers from hidden masters. The zone-transfer based solution would be my second choice. The above delegation-based solution (NS records) would be my third with 2317 being fourth and 2672 being last. Owen Attachment:
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