North American Network Operators Group

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Re: NYT on Thing.net

  • From: Kurt Erik Lindqvist
  • Date: Mon Jan 13 13:42:50 2003


Just for the record, your story above is far from complete and not true
on all accounts. It is also a quite simplified version of what
happened.
Perhaps Zenon (Whom I cc:ed just because he knows the details) can
shed some more light on this.
Well, I was (still is) a member of the Swedish Operator Forum, and I was part of making the decision on behalf of KPNQwest. I think I know what happened as well as anyone else does. But this is off-topic for this list.

have got shot down by public opinion. There was quite a lot of press
articles on how horrible it was that these neo-nazi sites (which is
what they where) was allowed to be on the Internet without action from
the providers.
A court deemed it nasty but legal. Whom are the ISP's to go against a
court decision?
The question was not if the content was "nasty" or not. The question was that there was a web-site that urged people to take to violence to a politician that had tried to work against the neo-nazis. There where several court cases (and I think it's still being discussed) that all came to different conclusions. This I don't know the details of.

But to the point, just because a site is legal, do I need to host it? I think not. What if all customers then decide to leave? I would be forced into bankruptcy.

Well, I can also see clear business reasons as to why I would deny a
client. If I had Coca-Cola as a customer and Pepsi-cola wanted to buy a
service, but Cola then threatens to leave, I should be in my full right
to deny Pepsi service.

Well, if that is where the money flows in from, it's not that bad.
It is also where the lawsuits flow from. If you really are just
interested in the money, then be honest and also say that you don't
give a cent about your small customers, nor their freedom or civil
rights (which is what you and all other ISP's are forcing them to
sign away)
If a company don't generate money they won't be around to protect freedom and civil acts.

Also, most companies are actually only in it for the money, and the small customers own shares in the company and expects them to earn as much money as possible.

Few ISPs are driven out of devotion and good faith.

Yes? See my example above. I see no conflict in this. It's called a
free market.
It is *not* a free market. Imagine AOL blocking Greenpeace. Is this still
normal, and ethically and morally okay, because that earns AOL some extra
Shell bucks. Monetairy interests without any scupulous, which is what
you claim, is exact the end of free market, and the reigh of the Corporate
company.
This is a political statement and actually that is where this discussion is going. I suggest we move this off-list if we are to continue.

This will
otherwise open the pandoras box you describe, where you would have to
judge what is illegal political content, child porn, etc.
In our 7 years of existence, we have never had to "rule" ourselves. And
we do host some high profile website, such as the ones I've mentioned
before, Xenu.net and FlashBack magazine.
Notice that you are located in a country with a very different base of ethics and a much more liberal view on most things compared to the Nordics. The web-sites at Flashback that was "nasty" would most likely have been illegal in Germany and a subject for the Constitutional court in Karlsruhe.

I have worked in the Nordics, Netherlands and Germany. Public opinion, law and traditions vary a lot. This will also have influence on actions taken.

- kurtis -