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North American Network Operators Group Date Prev | Date Next | Date Index | Thread Index | Author Index | Historical Re: Certification or College degrees? Was: RE: list problems?
I guess I've got a little bit of a mad on about this topic. Hit "D" now. -------- [email protected] ("Paul A Flores") writes: > What you have to remember is that having a degree or certification allows > the non-clue full out in the 'real' world to easily tell the difference > between you and say, the world's smartest garbage man. The trouble is, often times I'd rather hire the world's smartest garbage man. I never forget that when I got done interviewing for my first full time programming job I went back to my job fixing cars and pumping gas, and my fallback plan in case programming didn't work out was driving a tow truck (which paid better than either.) As it happens they hired me, and now my skills have atrophied to where I actually pay other people to fix my car since I don't grok all the new hoses and computer thingies they have now. -------- [email protected] (Leo Bicknell) writes: > > So what you're saying is, if I hadn't dropped out of high school during > > my 17th trip around Sol, I wouldn't've gotten stuck in this dead end job? > > I said college provides those skills. I did not say college was > the only way to get those skills. The converse is true as well, > having those skills doesn't guarantee success. Actually you said... > > If you ever want to become a team leader, or a manger, or run a > > theoretical group you are going to need the math and English > > backgrounds that college provides. ... ...and your use of the word "ever" is what cost me a higher score on the nanog all-time posting stats just released here. As of ten years ago, I've been assured by professional educators that I am up to snuff on the things one is supposed to learn from a masters' program. But before that I'd been completely self taught and there were enormous gaps in my knowledge -- yet the code and docs I wrote are in some cases still in production use, and I set and held records for operational uptime as what's now called a "sysadmin", and I'm having a lot of trouble relating any of that to the presence or absence of a degree or vendor certification. -------- [email protected] (Leo Bicknell) also writes: > > Cisco has done an excellent job @ brainwashing the IT > > community. The have (unfortunately) set the standard for > > "Network Engineers". > > I'm biased, see .sig, but having been through the process, and seen > what other vendors (eg, Microsoft, Novell) do with their programs > I do believe that Cisco wants their certifications to mean something. I'm also biased, but as I told you when you and I shared a reporting chain, I never held your CCIE against you since you'd demonstrated competence. I have met more CCIE's who were gibbering morons hiding their lack of skill behind their vendor certification thatn I have met CCIE's who, like you, probably ended up teaching the teacher a thing or two during "the process." In 1981 and '82 I worked for Golden Gate University, and part of my job was as a lab aid for COBOL and database students. A more earnest crew, I have never met. But I can assure you that 19 out of 20 of those students were going to come out of the program knowing exactly what was required to pass the tests and get a job, and not one speck more. Give me someone with the yearn to do and to know and to succeed, and I can plug them into the right team and get a hell of a lot more work done, than if you give me someone who has *only* the right letters after their name. Again, statistically speaking, CCIE has more often indicated moronhood than excellence, amongst those I have met. I forgave you yours, but only after watching you carefully for a couple of months to make sure that CCIE was an irrelevant accident in your case. -- Paul Vixie <[email protected]> President, PAIX.Net Inc.
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