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North American Network Operators Group Date Prev | Date Next | Date Index | Thread Index | Author Index | Historical Re: Traffic engineering tools
> Stating the obvious, "there's more fiber in the ground than all routers > can fill up" is not the point. The point is could we have built the Internet > to its present point without traffic engineering? The answer to that is a > resounding NO! May be, you first determine what exactly do you mean as the _traffic engeneering_? OSPF, btw, is kind of TE too... /I don't refuse your ideas, through. > > The next question is whether traffic engineering is useful for the future. > Remember these practitioners do not build networks based upon theory, but on > practical implementations that prove themselves to work. Perhaps the > load-sharing mechanism you described for Pluris will work. Perhaps not. > But to promote what hasn't proven itself and dismiss what has sounds > suspicously like bad marketing dressed up in the language of mathematics. > > Prabhu > > Vadim Antonov wrote: > > > > > You miss the point. As you well know, capacity is where it is, and not > > > where you need it. This is a pragmatic and practical problem that costs > > > people Real Money. > > > > Tony, there's more fiber in the ground than all routers together can > > fill up. And putting in fiber is not a highly skilled labour, quite > > unlike getting tons of buggy software to work in a production network. > > > > > I know one very large backbone operator who says something like "We couldn't > > >even begin to build our network without TE. It works and we must have it." > > > > Isn't it the same provider who's notorious for ATM-based network? > > If we think of the same provider - i had a pleasure of being a customer. > > Never again. > > > > > It's got nothing to do with latency and everything > > > to do with capacity. If you have the luxury of having fiber wherever and > > > whenever you want it, well, you're lucky. But not everyone is quite so > > > lucky. > > > > Luck is 99% a foresight. > > > > > I would claim that those _ARE_ real benefits. > > > > Numbers? > > > > > Perhaps it's not the elegant, desireable, or theoretically beautiful > > > solution. But it is a practical solution. > > > > Yes, sure. As Milo used to say: "With enough thrust even pigs will fly" :) > > > > > If you would like to wait for the elegant, desireable, and theoretically > > > beautiful solution, please be my guest. Those of us who engineer to reality > > > have more work to do. ;-) I'll simply remind you that there is also a > > > group of people waiting for the elegant, desireable, and theoretically > > > beautiful inter-domain routing protocol. > > > > I found that one cannot do IDR protocols for a living. Maybe, Yakov :) > > > > > Or..... it could be a requirement posed by the customer base that vendors > > > are trying to address. > > > > Yeah, sure. Like the conFusion. Or 7000 series. > > > > > You may not share in the problem. That's fine, I don't think anyone would > > > (ethically) suggest that you use a tool that solves a problem you don't > > > have. > > > > Unfortunately, the tool does not come free - any new code in a box makes the > > box flakier. And costlier. > > > > So what all these features do is shifting cost from those who screwed up > > network planning to those who did it properly, but have to pay for all > > bundled TE stuff and live with flaky complicated code. > > > > My memories of being dragged out of bed nearly every night because of > > router software being stuck in interesting ways are not particularly fond. > > I'll exchange complicated ultra-smart hot stuff for a dumb box which > > actually works - any time. > > > > --vadim > > -- > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Prabhu Kavi Phone: 978-264-4900 x125 > Director, Prod. Mgmt. FAX: 978-264-0671 > Tenor Networks Email: [email protected] > 50 Nagog Park WWW: www.tenornetworks.com > Acton, MA 01720 > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Aleksei Roudnev, Network Operations Center, Relcom, Moscow (+7 095) 194-19-95 (Network Operations Center Hot Line),(+7 095) 230-41-41, N 13729 (pager) (+7 095) 196-72-12 (Support), (+7 095) 194-33-28 (Fax)
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