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Re: Spam Control Considered Harmful

  • From: Karl Denninger
  • Date: Tue Oct 28 21:11:09 1997

On Tue, Oct 28, 1997 at 08:22:59PM -0500, Phil Lawlor wrote:
> At 07:53 PM 10/28/97 -0500, Barry Shein wrote:
> >
> >Steal resources, annoy people to no possible benefit to them, bombard
> >them 24 hrs/day with come-ons for porn and transparently fraudulent
> >business claims and pyramid schemes and chain letters etc and they
> >won't be happy.
> >
> >It's not that hard to understand: Pissing people off is not a great
> >way to do business. In fact, it doesn't work.
> I agree with the fundamental principle, however, some people are making
> money at UBE without regard to who, or how many people they piss off.  The
> money is being made in selling software to do spamming, or running services
> that spam.  At AGIS, we've seen it all.  Address mungers, relay hijackers,
> bcc bombers, etc.
> It has always been our intent to stop this kind of abuse of technology.
> Albeit, our position and motives were misunderstood, our end has always
> been clear.

I don't believe that's true Phil.

The bottom line is this - delivering unsolicited email to me of *any kind*
which is unwanted (ie: solicitations, pyramid schemes, etc) is *theft of


The "IEMMC", which you were involved in at AGIS, was a fraud.  


It was a fraud PRECISELY because it did not organize to handle broadcast 
solicitations via the ONLY means that are defensible - that is, OPT IN.

OPT OUT is fraudulent EVEN IF IT ACTUALLY WORKS.  Its a fraud because the
spammer STEALS FROM THE RECIPIENT AND THEIR ISP initially, then tells
them they won't steal any more if they ask that you not do so.

The point is that the spammer has no right to steal *IN THE FIRST PLACE*.

It doesn't matter how much or how little is stolen.

That's just not the point from a moral and/or ethical point of view.  If 
you steal a penny from me, you've still stolen and you've still committed 
a fraud against me.  Whether I can prosecute you for the theft of that 
penny and see you sent to jail isn't the point.

This country has declined in its morals to the point that if I can't put 
you in jail for what you do then you deem it to be "ok".  

That has NEVER been the case, and it NEVER will be.

Deception, fraud, theft.  They are what UBE is all about.  ISPs who shelter
people who commit these acts are themselves complicit in the act.  The excuse
evaporates as soon as you become aware.

Today, the rule is "anything for a buck".  Its sad, but its what's happening.

> UBErs exploit the weaknesses in the email infrastructure of the net.  I
> still believe that until we can find technological solutions the the theft
> of service and forgery issues, spam as we know it will continue.
> Phil Lawlor
> President
> Voice - 313-730-1130
> Fax   - 313-563-6119

You either stand for what is right, or you don't.

Theft is immoral.  Leave aside the legalities of the issue, and whether I
can send you up the river for it.  They're cute discussions, but they're not
related to the actual issue, which is that UBE is *wrong*.

Karl Denninger ([email protected])| MCSNet - Serving Chicagoland and Wisconsin     | T1's from $600 monthly to FULL DS-3 Service
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